i want to ask a couple of serious questions.
hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.. .
1. if we ignore the writings by paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?.
transhuman68,
I too have Burton Mack's book, and it makes for very interesting. Perhaps I could suggest a few others:
"St Paul versus St Peter", Michael Golder
"How Jesus Became Christian", Barrie Wilson
"Jesus for the Non-Religious", John Shelby Spong.
And for the early history, books such as those by Charles Freeman: "A New History of Early Christianity" and "AD 381".
Doug
"yahweh is a monster and the bible is full of contradictions!".
this is for all atheists, skeptics, believers, anyone to post the biggest contradictions that you believe are found in the bible, and also to tell about why you believe the god of the old testament (yahweh/jehovah) is a "monster" (as so many have said on this website in the past).. so this is a double-themed-thread!.
i want to see if i can provide good answers/solutions using logic and reasoning..
There are several contradictions in the two stories of Jesus' birth. There are also contradictions in the stories of the events surrounding his death and also of his resurrection.
A good book that provides a balanced and detailed survey is: "The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible", by Robin Lane Fox.
And of course you must never go past "Jesus for the Non-Religious" by John Shelby Spong.
Doug
random thought: mosquitos, biting bugs, sunburn.
unprotected, how long can you stand outside, just one day, and your all burned up, without sunscreen.
in many parts, how long outside especially in evening until you get eat up by mosquitos?
Are you sure you've got the Cause and Effect right? Let's see.
God zooms down from wherever, grabs hold of a female mossie and hold it against your arm and makes it penetrate your skin. Then God rushes back and sits on the third heaven just above the clouds, watches your itch (or maybe death) and smiles at his mischief.
But I don't know that you can blame God for sunburn. That's self-inflicted.
Doug
i want to ask a couple of serious questions.
hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.. .
1. if we ignore the writings by paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?.
I want to ask a couple of serious questions. Hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.
1. If we ignore the writings by Paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of Jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?
2. When "Paul" writes that Christ died for our sins, is he alluding to the Passover or to the Day of Atonment (Yom Kippur)?
Doug
it is the one that this world doesn't know, that must request of the father, to give the helper, the holy spirit; the spirit of the truth; then jesus tells us that the world cannot receive of the holy spirit, they neither see him or know him.
" {1 john 5:19 nlt}.
" {1 john 2:27 nlt}.
To reason on Christology, climb outside the contents of the Bible and look on it from outside, as you would look at any piece of literature.
Consider the motives of each writer, their individual contexts, the process taken to decide which writing was considered "orthodox", the external religious politics, the external secular politics, and so on. Search for the reason a particular piece was selected and similarly the reason a piece was rejected.
Apply these factors when considering the doctrine of the nature of God. In particular, trace the direct influence of various emperors of the eastern Roman Empire in defining orthodoxy, and how the official state church followed those edicts.
The emperors thought they would bring peace to the riven Christian Church. They did not; all they achieved was stifling of debate of the subject.
The discussions carried on here are sedate. During the 5th and 6th centuries, Christians murdered, tortured and humiliated other Christians because they had a different Christology. These murderous exploits decimated the eastern church and opened the way for Islam; it also caused an eastern religion to be limited to its European foothold.
Today we can respect that others have the right to their views.
Doug
first century.. rome.
jerusalem.
galilee.. low tech world.. roman armies marching always into battles.. sons and fathers conscripted to fight and die.. taxes.. morning to sundown scraping out a meager living.. .
Terry,
The Christianity that ultimately prospered was the version taught by Paul, who was based at Antioch. His teachings were aligned with Hellenistic philosophy, so those teachings were more acceptable to the populace than were the strict legalistic version of the larger Jewish Christian movement under James and Peter, based at Jerusalem. These Christian groups were at odds with one another, and with other Christian sects. The Jerusalem group evolved into groups such as the Ebionites.
Paul's story was a philosophy about the impact of the Christ, whereas the Jewish Christians were practical, albeit very legalistic, and were about Jesus. The Greek and Roman philosophers had much less difficulty accepting Paul's views; they found the Jewish ritual requirements, such as circumcision, too difficult to accept.
To gain some idea of the tension between Paul's version and the Jerusalem version of Christianity, you only need read Paul's invective in his early letter, to the Galatians, and also his harsh words about the Jews' Law in Romans. You can imagine how well that went down with the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem!
In time, Paul's version gained the support of the emperors of the Eastern Roman empire, who saw political value in recognising Paul's version, and in this way they inadvertently defined Christian orthodoxy. This officially sanctioned state church determined which were the writings acceptable as their New Testament canon, and we can see their bias, as well as their inconsistencies.
Examination of the time shows why the Gentile Christians succeeded, while the message of the Jewish Christians, who were the rightful heirs, was almost obliterated.
Doug
i previously asked about the evolution in the application of daniel 9 to the christian's jesus.. naturally, leo generously provided the answer, and i am deeply greatful to her for her help!.
she also pointed out that the "solution" that jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years is circular reasoning.
that is, we know that the prophecy is correct and that jesus' ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years because that is what the prophecy had predicted.
Once more I express my gratitude to Leolaia for her knowledge and her willingness to share it so freely. Thank you so much.
---------------
In his book, "Jesus for the Non-Religious" (published 2007), John Shelby Spong connects Jesus with Yom Kippur, saying that when Paul wrote "Christ died for our sins", he was relating Christ's death to the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur, in September) rather than to the Passover (in Spring).
Spong also writes: "By the time the Fourth Gospel was written, the connection between Jesus and the sacrifice of Yom Kippur had become complete and the interpretation of Jesus under the symbols of Yom Kippur was fixed". (see his pages 159-169)
Doug
i previously asked about the evolution in the application of daniel 9 to the christian's jesus.. naturally, leo generously provided the answer, and i am deeply greatful to her for her help!.
she also pointed out that the "solution" that jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years is circular reasoning.
that is, we know that the prophecy is correct and that jesus' ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years because that is what the prophecy had predicted.
I previously asked about the evolution in the application of Daniel 9 to the Christian's Jesus.
Naturally, Leo generously provided the answer, and I am deeply greatful to her for her help!
She also pointed out that the "solution" that Jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years is circular reasoning. That is, we know that the prophecy is correct and that Jesus' ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years because that is what the prophecy had predicted. And around and around we go.
So am I correct in saying that the idea that Jesus' ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years was created simultaneously with that developing application of Daniel's prophecy to Jesus?
Is there any documentary evidence that tracks the development of the idea that Jesus' ministry lasted for only 3 1/2 years?
Doug
just how does the governing body of jehovah's witnesses receive their "insight" or "understanding" of the bible, in order to publish this "spiritual food at the proper time" in their watchtower and awake magazines and all their books?.
let's find out -- from their own publications -- exactly how this happens:.
"spirits of the dead" brochure (1991), page 18:.
Maybe they receive New Light from their Legal Eagles?
Maybe they receive New Light when someone (possible even a non-anointed one) writes a book or article for them?
As a very small child, I saw people get in touch with the spirit world. They put an upturned glass on a polished table ... and ... and ... And it worked! Frightening and terrifying, even to this day the memory scares me.
Doug
i am seeking information, not an exegesis or an eisegesis.. .
"somewhere", i came across a statement identifying the person/group that first interpreted the 70 "sevens" of daniel 9 as identifying the year of jesus' appearance as the "messiah".. .
try as i might, i cannot relocate that information, so i am hoping someone can point me to authoritative sources that identify the person/group who first provided that interpretation, and hopefully the contemporary context.. .
Leolaia,
I cannot thank you enough for your wonderful knowledge and above that, your generosity in freely sharing it with us all.
Doug
